Abdullah Gül The Times'a Demiş ki...
Are you a threat to Turkey's secularism? Do you have a hidden agenda?
Gul (laughs): Before we were in office I'm sure you were warned 'oh these people are coming, you must be careful'. I'm sure you have been monitoring us these past four and a half years. As foreign minister of this country I have been representing the country outside. Did you find that kind of thing or not? (laughs again). I feel really sad because we have been modernising this country. We have been opening this country to the outside. Look at our record. If we had a hidden agenda why would we push so hard for Turkey to enter the European Union?
If that's the case why are the military so opposed to you becoming president?
G: Well I don't think this is personal. They cannot be against me personally. This is an open society. There are some civilians who have militant minds. They have been exploiting all these issues. I have been working with (the military) very closely. We are very active outside in Bosnia, Kosovo and Afghanistan and we are fighting terror. In the government and particularly at the foreign ministry we are shoulder to shoulder with the military. This is a political rather than a military issue. If you know recent Turkish political history the record (for military coups) is unfortunately not very successful, but don't forget that in the last five years Turkey has changed a lot and we have been a negotiating country with the European Union. This is not a joke. There were political criteria and democratic standards we needed to fulfil to start negotiations. We have fulfilled these standards sufficiently. Of course we have shortcomings but we will definitely overcome them. Recently there was a turbulence, but now it is over. Democracy is working.
Was the military more concerned with holding on to power? Was that the prime motive in opposing you?
G: No. Because the constitution is clear, the laws are clear, the terms of reference of all the institutions are all very clear.
What about the fear of millions of ordinary Turkish civilians who fear your presidency? This may be misplaced, but should you have done more to allay those fears?
G:They were huge crowds its true...I'm sure that from among those crowds I can get quite a big number of sympathisers for myself. If we had another demonstration we would get five times bigger crowds. But I don't want these divisions in the country. We are the government and we are the ruling party so we don't want that kind of separation of the people. Therefore we were under great pressure but we did not allow this to happen. When you look at these crowds they were modern, but when you look at the slogans, when you look at the rhetoric in the speeches they were against the EU, against privatization, against foreign direct investment. That’s why I say that we are not inward-looking, but when you analyse the speeches they were inward looking and just opposed to the freemarket economic system.
Did you anticipate so much opposition from the military or whoever to your nomination?
G: If the opposition parties were present in the assembly there would not be any problem there, so I don't blame others I just blame the political parties. The Constitution has been the same since 1980. We have not amended even a comma. And according to these rules three presidents were elected. But unfortunately this time the constitutional court decided that something was wrong with this. But still I got the highest vote among the three presidents. No President was elected in the first round and I was just six or seven votes short. The problem is not the military. There was some concern from the military and the government responded to this and that was all.
People have been saying that if AK party control the Prime Minister’s office and the Parliament Speaker’s office then there is no way the military is going to give up the presidency as well. You can’t dismiss the military statement.
G: No. No. If you believe this you cannot get the real picture here. It is civilians – it is the politicians. If they are not strong enough they exploit the military, they exploit the others. (My presidency) was not blocked by the military, it was blocked by the politicians. The military got an answer (to their statement) and that was all.
No-one stopped the deputies (who abstained). But they waited outside the assembly. There was no soldier, no tank. (The statement) did not say that if those deputies go in there we will punish them. If the politician is so weak and has got different messages that is his problem.
You must have felt personally very upset after all you have done for your country?
G: What happened in the last two weeks does not fit with Turkey today. This makes me upset of course. Personally how can I be happy with this? But people’s reaction is very clear. When I see opinion polls you see that close to seventy percent of people - not only traditional religious people – supported my candidacy. This is a big honour for me of course.
Assuming AK wins the election on July 22 do you expect to be nominated for president again?
G: So far my nomination is there.
Are there any circumstances under which in the interests of national unity or harmony you might say ‘okay let’s put forward a candidate who is more acceptable to the public’?
G: If someone is getting more than 60 percent in the popular vote does it not show that the consensus is there? I have been in politics this last 15 years. I am so transparent. I am leading foreign politics in this country. I was once the prime minister of this country. My beliefs or my wife’s -- these are all individual choices. Our record is there. We are so vigilant about individual choices. I expect people to respect this.
If you were nominated for president again how would you expect the secular establishment, including the military, to react? Will they accept you?
G: Definitely of course. This is a democratic country. Turkey is not one of the Middle East countries. From outside you may see that Turkey is a third or fourth-rate democracy but it is not. Democracy is working here and the people and the politicians will decide everything. This is not the Turkey of the 1960s and 1970s. Turkey is a negotiating country with the EU.
Do you think it will come to a popular vote?
G: I believe yes...
The military sees itself as the guardian of secularism. Is your definition of secularism different?
G: No, no, no. This is all old. The guardian of secularism is the people – all of us. This country has changed a lot. I personally wish that this country should continue as a secular country. I support secularism.. What is secularism? That I don't mind your belief and you don't mind my belief and the state should not have any religious-oriented policies and rules. But freedom is something else: the fundamental rights of the people; the expression of opinion; their religious belief; their lifestyle: these are all fundamental rights. So if someone, let’s say my wife, uses a scarf, that is her personal individual choice.
Some people see this as a breach...
G: If someone says this is against secularism I don't agree with him. If the state or someone imposes religious rules or a religious lifestyle on others, this is also definitely wrong. I also don’t agree with this. But this is a Muslim country so people will try to practise what they believe.
If you become president how can you overcome the present situation in which your wife was unable to go to university because of her headscarf?
G: I think when times pass all these things will change in a democratic way. If a girl is going to university with a scarf in London, America or Moscow or China how can you explain to her that she would not be allowed into Turkish universities? This is not convincing. But because this became a controversial issue here our policy is not to force – not to create new polarities? Our aim is to solve these controversial problems all together.
Could you honestly go to Brussels at the moment and say Turkey should be a member of the European Union despite what has happened in the past few weeks?
G: Of course I can. Brussels can understand better than others because they know what is going on and know the dynamics here. They are aware of the progress here also.
So it’s not a problem?
G: I am not defending what has happened. But I have a strong determination that we have overcome all this.. Democracy is working. We have damage control.
To what extent has the opposition of countries such as France and Germany and Austria to Turkish membership of the EU undermined AK and played into the hands of your opponents here?
G: Turkey started negotiations with the full support of these countries. I told them?why are you making Turkey an issue as if we are going to be a full member next year? But unfortunately because of domestic issues they talk a lot. This of course was reflected here and that's not good. Support for the EU decreased a little bit because of this. This did not help.
Are there never moments where you feel intense frustration -- over Cyprus for instance?
G: Over Cyprus yes it is true. We feel very bad about that. One side said yes (to the Annan plan for a solution on the island) and honoured the call of the EU and the other side very strongly and consciously rejected it. Those who rejected it joined and those who supported it are out and still under economic ambargo. If you remember (former EU enlargement commissioner) Mr (Guenther) Verheugen said "we were cheated". The Turkish people on the island are saying "we were cheated by the EU".
Do you feel cheated?
G: I also feel definitely (cheated). (The EU) expressed their regret at the referendum result?They asked the commission to help put in place?.financial aid and trade regulations. Still there is nothing. This is not good news for the credibility of the Union.
Another issue which is damaging Turkey's image overseas is article 301 (of the penal code which punished denigrating Turkish identity)?
G: We are well aware of our shortcomings. Definitely we will continue the reform process?.We led the reform process. We removed so many bans and made a more liberal environment. We made a functioning free-market economy after 35 years. We got single digit inflation. Over two years we got fifty billion dollars of foreign direct investment - there is no single year that we got more than one billion dollars foreign direct investment before this. We changed the country, we changed the economic structure, we changed the legal structure, we made the country attractive to people. They brought their savings and they invested in this country.
Ataturk's great goal was to modernise this country and to bring Turkey into Europe. Who is the real guardian of Ataturk's legacy in Turkey?
G: We have been doing this. When you look at rhetoric it is the leftist parties (who hold Ataturk’s legacy), but when you look at action and record it is the conservative parties. Ataturk said that we had to take Turkey beyond the level of advanced civilizations. What does this mean? Democracy, economic development. modernisation, freedom. Now look at the record. When you look at the achievements, the economic achievements... at modernisation in all fields?All this happened during the time of conservative parties. In our four and a half years we achieved 35 percent economic growth. There is no precedent in modern times. So we are fulfilling the target Ataturk showed us.
If he had a vote, if he was still alive and could vote on July 22 do you think he would vote for AK?
G: I'm sure that what we have been doing is being appreciated by the sincere supporters of Ataturk.
Would he have a problem with your wife wearing a headscarf?
G: No, why? His wife wore a headscarf...
Would you describe you and your wife as very strict Muslims or liberal Muslims?
G: I cannot say this because religion is in your heart. It is not the appearance, it is the heart.
Would you like to see sharia law?
G: No, there is no demand for it here. Suppose that I am saying no to you but my heart is saying differently – then, why would we want our country in the EU? This means EU standard democracy and economy and administration, respect for human rights, fundamental rights, transparency, gender equality, accountability of politicians or rulers. That’s our aim and it is in that direction that we are changing the country.
If your daughter decided she didn't want to wear the headscarf would that be okay?
G: It's up to her.
If she wanted to date with boys do you have a problem?
G: It’s up to her. In my family not all the women wear the headscarf. Some are more practising some are less practicing.
You spent a couple of years in Exeter at university. Did that change your outlook?
G: Of course it changed it. I saw the democracy, the freedom there. I saw different political movements all there. When I first joined politics I started to represent the Turkish parliament at the Council of Europe's parliamentary assembly. After 10 years I was given a medal of honour as the longest serving member. That was also a school in my political life.
Gul (laughs): Before we were in office I'm sure you were warned 'oh these people are coming, you must be careful'. I'm sure you have been monitoring us these past four and a half years. As foreign minister of this country I have been representing the country outside. Did you find that kind of thing or not? (laughs again). I feel really sad because we have been modernising this country. We have been opening this country to the outside. Look at our record. If we had a hidden agenda why would we push so hard for Turkey to enter the European Union?
If that's the case why are the military so opposed to you becoming president?
G: Well I don't think this is personal. They cannot be against me personally. This is an open society. There are some civilians who have militant minds. They have been exploiting all these issues. I have been working with (the military) very closely. We are very active outside in Bosnia, Kosovo and Afghanistan and we are fighting terror. In the government and particularly at the foreign ministry we are shoulder to shoulder with the military. This is a political rather than a military issue. If you know recent Turkish political history the record (for military coups) is unfortunately not very successful, but don't forget that in the last five years Turkey has changed a lot and we have been a negotiating country with the European Union. This is not a joke. There were political criteria and democratic standards we needed to fulfil to start negotiations. We have fulfilled these standards sufficiently. Of course we have shortcomings but we will definitely overcome them. Recently there was a turbulence, but now it is over. Democracy is working.
Was the military more concerned with holding on to power? Was that the prime motive in opposing you?
G: No. Because the constitution is clear, the laws are clear, the terms of reference of all the institutions are all very clear.
What about the fear of millions of ordinary Turkish civilians who fear your presidency? This may be misplaced, but should you have done more to allay those fears?
G:They were huge crowds its true...I'm sure that from among those crowds I can get quite a big number of sympathisers for myself. If we had another demonstration we would get five times bigger crowds. But I don't want these divisions in the country. We are the government and we are the ruling party so we don't want that kind of separation of the people. Therefore we were under great pressure but we did not allow this to happen. When you look at these crowds they were modern, but when you look at the slogans, when you look at the rhetoric in the speeches they were against the EU, against privatization, against foreign direct investment. That’s why I say that we are not inward-looking, but when you analyse the speeches they were inward looking and just opposed to the freemarket economic system.
Did you anticipate so much opposition from the military or whoever to your nomination?
G: If the opposition parties were present in the assembly there would not be any problem there, so I don't blame others I just blame the political parties. The Constitution has been the same since 1980. We have not amended even a comma. And according to these rules three presidents were elected. But unfortunately this time the constitutional court decided that something was wrong with this. But still I got the highest vote among the three presidents. No President was elected in the first round and I was just six or seven votes short. The problem is not the military. There was some concern from the military and the government responded to this and that was all.
People have been saying that if AK party control the Prime Minister’s office and the Parliament Speaker’s office then there is no way the military is going to give up the presidency as well. You can’t dismiss the military statement.
G: No. No. If you believe this you cannot get the real picture here. It is civilians – it is the politicians. If they are not strong enough they exploit the military, they exploit the others. (My presidency) was not blocked by the military, it was blocked by the politicians. The military got an answer (to their statement) and that was all.
No-one stopped the deputies (who abstained). But they waited outside the assembly. There was no soldier, no tank. (The statement) did not say that if those deputies go in there we will punish them. If the politician is so weak and has got different messages that is his problem.
You must have felt personally very upset after all you have done for your country?
G: What happened in the last two weeks does not fit with Turkey today. This makes me upset of course. Personally how can I be happy with this? But people’s reaction is very clear. When I see opinion polls you see that close to seventy percent of people - not only traditional religious people – supported my candidacy. This is a big honour for me of course.
Assuming AK wins the election on July 22 do you expect to be nominated for president again?
G: So far my nomination is there.
Are there any circumstances under which in the interests of national unity or harmony you might say ‘okay let’s put forward a candidate who is more acceptable to the public’?
G: If someone is getting more than 60 percent in the popular vote does it not show that the consensus is there? I have been in politics this last 15 years. I am so transparent. I am leading foreign politics in this country. I was once the prime minister of this country. My beliefs or my wife’s -- these are all individual choices. Our record is there. We are so vigilant about individual choices. I expect people to respect this.
If you were nominated for president again how would you expect the secular establishment, including the military, to react? Will they accept you?
G: Definitely of course. This is a democratic country. Turkey is not one of the Middle East countries. From outside you may see that Turkey is a third or fourth-rate democracy but it is not. Democracy is working here and the people and the politicians will decide everything. This is not the Turkey of the 1960s and 1970s. Turkey is a negotiating country with the EU.
Do you think it will come to a popular vote?
G: I believe yes...
The military sees itself as the guardian of secularism. Is your definition of secularism different?
G: No, no, no. This is all old. The guardian of secularism is the people – all of us. This country has changed a lot. I personally wish that this country should continue as a secular country. I support secularism.. What is secularism? That I don't mind your belief and you don't mind my belief and the state should not have any religious-oriented policies and rules. But freedom is something else: the fundamental rights of the people; the expression of opinion; their religious belief; their lifestyle: these are all fundamental rights. So if someone, let’s say my wife, uses a scarf, that is her personal individual choice.
Some people see this as a breach...
G: If someone says this is against secularism I don't agree with him. If the state or someone imposes religious rules or a religious lifestyle on others, this is also definitely wrong. I also don’t agree with this. But this is a Muslim country so people will try to practise what they believe.
If you become president how can you overcome the present situation in which your wife was unable to go to university because of her headscarf?
G: I think when times pass all these things will change in a democratic way. If a girl is going to university with a scarf in London, America or Moscow or China how can you explain to her that she would not be allowed into Turkish universities? This is not convincing. But because this became a controversial issue here our policy is not to force – not to create new polarities? Our aim is to solve these controversial problems all together.
Could you honestly go to Brussels at the moment and say Turkey should be a member of the European Union despite what has happened in the past few weeks?
G: Of course I can. Brussels can understand better than others because they know what is going on and know the dynamics here. They are aware of the progress here also.
So it’s not a problem?
G: I am not defending what has happened. But I have a strong determination that we have overcome all this.. Democracy is working. We have damage control.
To what extent has the opposition of countries such as France and Germany and Austria to Turkish membership of the EU undermined AK and played into the hands of your opponents here?
G: Turkey started negotiations with the full support of these countries. I told them?why are you making Turkey an issue as if we are going to be a full member next year? But unfortunately because of domestic issues they talk a lot. This of course was reflected here and that's not good. Support for the EU decreased a little bit because of this. This did not help.
Are there never moments where you feel intense frustration -- over Cyprus for instance?
G: Over Cyprus yes it is true. We feel very bad about that. One side said yes (to the Annan plan for a solution on the island) and honoured the call of the EU and the other side very strongly and consciously rejected it. Those who rejected it joined and those who supported it are out and still under economic ambargo. If you remember (former EU enlargement commissioner) Mr (Guenther) Verheugen said "we were cheated". The Turkish people on the island are saying "we were cheated by the EU".
Do you feel cheated?
G: I also feel definitely (cheated). (The EU) expressed their regret at the referendum result?They asked the commission to help put in place?.financial aid and trade regulations. Still there is nothing. This is not good news for the credibility of the Union.
Another issue which is damaging Turkey's image overseas is article 301 (of the penal code which punished denigrating Turkish identity)?
G: We are well aware of our shortcomings. Definitely we will continue the reform process?.We led the reform process. We removed so many bans and made a more liberal environment. We made a functioning free-market economy after 35 years. We got single digit inflation. Over two years we got fifty billion dollars of foreign direct investment - there is no single year that we got more than one billion dollars foreign direct investment before this. We changed the country, we changed the economic structure, we changed the legal structure, we made the country attractive to people. They brought their savings and they invested in this country.
Ataturk's great goal was to modernise this country and to bring Turkey into Europe. Who is the real guardian of Ataturk's legacy in Turkey?
G: We have been doing this. When you look at rhetoric it is the leftist parties (who hold Ataturk’s legacy), but when you look at action and record it is the conservative parties. Ataturk said that we had to take Turkey beyond the level of advanced civilizations. What does this mean? Democracy, economic development. modernisation, freedom. Now look at the record. When you look at the achievements, the economic achievements... at modernisation in all fields?All this happened during the time of conservative parties. In our four and a half years we achieved 35 percent economic growth. There is no precedent in modern times. So we are fulfilling the target Ataturk showed us.
If he had a vote, if he was still alive and could vote on July 22 do you think he would vote for AK?
G: I'm sure that what we have been doing is being appreciated by the sincere supporters of Ataturk.
Would he have a problem with your wife wearing a headscarf?
G: No, why? His wife wore a headscarf...
Would you describe you and your wife as very strict Muslims or liberal Muslims?
G: I cannot say this because religion is in your heart. It is not the appearance, it is the heart.
Would you like to see sharia law?
G: No, there is no demand for it here. Suppose that I am saying no to you but my heart is saying differently – then, why would we want our country in the EU? This means EU standard democracy and economy and administration, respect for human rights, fundamental rights, transparency, gender equality, accountability of politicians or rulers. That’s our aim and it is in that direction that we are changing the country.
If your daughter decided she didn't want to wear the headscarf would that be okay?
G: It's up to her.
If she wanted to date with boys do you have a problem?
G: It’s up to her. In my family not all the women wear the headscarf. Some are more practising some are less practicing.
You spent a couple of years in Exeter at university. Did that change your outlook?
G: Of course it changed it. I saw the democracy, the freedom there. I saw different political movements all there. When I first joined politics I started to represent the Turkish parliament at the Council of Europe's parliamentary assembly. After 10 years I was given a medal of honour as the longest serving member. That was also a school in my political life.
Times on line, 31 Mayıs 2007
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